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#362 add @type to msDesc

GREEN
closed-accepted
5
2012-10-22
2012-05-12
Tom Elliott
No

Request addition of @type to <msDesc> so we can efficiently construct lists of surrogates as in the following example. We'd rather not have to add <bibl> just for the sake of getting @type, as it would add another level of depth to the tagging, otherwise unnecessary. We want to make use of <msDesc> in this context in order to have <repository>, <institution> (if necessary), etc.

<surrogates>
<msDesc type="photo">
<msIdentifier>
<repository>EFEO</repository>
<idno xml:id="photo-efeo-72">72</idno>
</msIdentifier>
</msDesc>
<msDesc type="estampage-uninked">
<msIdentifier>
<repository>EFEO</repository>
<idno xml:id="est-efeo-321">321</idno>
</msIdentifier>
</msDesc>
<msDesc type="estampage-inked">
<msIdentifier>
<repository>EFEO</repository>
<idno xml:id="est-efeo-332">332</idno>
</msIdentifier>
</msDesc>
</surrogates>

Discussion

  • Martin Holmes

    Martin Holmes - 2012-05-13

    This seems straightforward and uncontroversial to me. I can think of a couple of situations in which it would have been useful in my projects. +1.

    Any disadvantages to making msDesc a member of att.typed?

     
  • Lou Burnard

    Lou Burnard - 2012-05-15

    Sorry, but I don't understand this use case. <msDesc> is for describing manuscripts or other primary sources. It's tag abuse to use it to describe surrogates, unless they are surrogates written by hand (which the value @type="photo" would suggest they are not). The need seems to be simply to have a bit more structure in the surrogate identifiers which can surely be done in a simpler and less abusive way -- @type should not be used to change the fundamental semantics of an existing element!

     
  • BODARD Gabriel

    BODARD Gabriel - 2012-05-15

    Yes, "photograph" is a strange example, but surely not all "manuscripts" are handwritten, Lou. msDesc is used to describe all sorts of non-handwritten documents, from incunabula, printed books, inscriptions (a machine-tooled modern inscription not handwritten, for example), mass-produced posters and artwork, etc. I'm sure that in some cases even a photograph can be the primary document (not just a surrogate of it) of which a TEI transcription is made.

    This example aside, presumably people use msDesc inside listBibl precisely to list a series of documents which all have, at the minimum, some kind of respository and identifier. We can type bibls inside a listBibl (for dozens of reasons; primary vs derivative, edition vs translation...); I can't see why we wouldn't want to be able to type msDescs in the same context for almost all the same reasons (plus manuscript vs incunable, autograph vs copy...).

     
  • BODARD Gabriel

    BODARD Gabriel - 2012-05-15

    Oh, but to address Tom's use-case, which I believe is that surrogates of his texts are treated as museum objects in their own right (with catalogue numbers, therefore needing institution, repository and idno), if these are not to be treated as msDescs, what other way do you suggest of getting the structure of <msIdentifier> repeatably (and typeably) into <surrogates>?

     
  • James Cummings

    James Cummings - 2012-06-19

    Ignoring the validity or not of the proposed use-case, I would use the principle that <msDesc> is repeatable and is something for which there can be different classifications.

    e.g. I could have two <msDesc> of the same manuscript which are different because, for example, they are at different stages of a retrospective conversion process (i.e. one just has paragraphs, the other has a fully-structured description.) @type on <msDesc> would be for classification of what sort of manuscript description it was. Since it meets my 'repeatable' and 'classifiable' criteria, then I'd suggest it should get att.typed.

    -James

     
  • James Cummings

    James Cummings - 2012-06-19
    • milestone: --> 871209
    • assigned_to: nobody --> gabrielbodard
     
  • BODARD Gabriel

    BODARD Gabriel - 2012-07-31

    So there are two issues here, one of which has not been addressed at all:

    (1) add @type to <msDesc>: there seems to be consensus that this makes sense, and as this ticket has been assigned to me I can go ahead and implement that if nobody objects.

    (2) how to record surrogates with repository, institution, idno, etc., which is the original use-case of this ticket. If it is felt that msDesc is unsuitable for this (per Lou Burnard 2012-05-15), then how should we tag this? (Or do some people feel this is not as inappropirate as LB does? After all, just because an object/document is a surrogate in the context of this edition, does not mean it is not also a manuscript in its own right in the context of its collection/owing institution.)

     
  • Lou Burnard

    Lou Burnard - 2012-09-15

    If the underlying issue here is how to provide more detailed information about a surrogate, especially in the case where it is describable using <msDesc>, then I don't think there is any problem putting <msDesc> inside <surrogates>, just as you can put <bibl> there. So it's a non-issue.

    Whether this is an argument for making <msDesc> typed is a different question : I would (as usual) say not. The function of an <msDesc> is determined by its position -- in the <sourceDesc>, in the <body> or in <surrogates> it has a differemnt meaning. Adding @type as another way of saying what its function might be is just opening the door to incoherence and/or redundancy of encoding.

     
  • James Cummings

    James Cummings - 2012-09-19

    Council accepts that msDesc should claim membership in att.typed, Gaby to implement. (Council Face to Face 2012-09)

     
  • James Cummings

    James Cummings - 2012-09-19
    • milestone: 871209 --> GREEN
    • status: open --> open-accepted
     
  • BODARD Gabriel

    BODARD Gabriel - 2012-10-22

    Implemented (at [r10988]). Probably needs a note or an example of use in the GLs.

     

    Related

    Commit: [r10988]


    Last edit: BODARD Gabriel 2013-06-24
  • BODARD Gabriel

    BODARD Gabriel - 2012-10-22
    • status: open-accepted --> closed-accepted