Société à grades et sorcellerieIn the old days, during heathen times, the people of Hiw did not eat people. They were not cannibals.But what happened was, however many villages there were, in every village there would be stone tombs.Stone tombs were erected on sacred land. We call ‘sacred land’ the area around the house of initiated men. Yes, just nearby the men's house.Those tombs were erected… that is, whenever people went to war, as men were massacred and died in numbers, people would collect their bodies and lay them in tombs.The bodies were laid to rest in tombs so that, once the flesh decayed from the bones, these bones could later be collected, and made into deadly arrows.As for those “deadly arrows”, those were weapons used to shoot animals or men, that could bring immediate death. Instant death!Those arrows had something evil in them: they were human bones. And so, people would take those human bones, would sharpen them, some would bewitch them…And still today, you can walk to a cave, and you might come across a place where an ancestor stored his fatal arrows – go there and you'll see. You'll see a bunch of deadly arrows lying there.In fact, still today, there are people here on Hiw who own these deadly arrows. They were stored somewhere by the ancestors, and still exist up to this day. 🌿Alright so, our ancestors did not eat people.There was no cannibalism: if there was a massacre, then the bodies would be laid in a tomb. So the bones could be collected later.These bones would be filed into a pointy tip, and stored in a bamboo quiver. That's it. 🌿[AF] – So, what did you call “tomb”?[JT] – By “tombs”, I mean a place where people would pile up stones, and lay a body on top. The body of a dead person.In fact, when I say they'd lay the body of dead people, I meant specifically high-ranked people. Individuals who had gone through initiation, sometimes up to the supreme rank: those were the ones who got to be laid in tombs.As for common people such as women, children, non-initiated men, now these were simply buried.They were simply buried in the ground, in the graveyeard, the cemetery. Just buried.But those who were, like, of high rank, those who were wealthy, like elders, chiefs, men like that: when they died, they were not eaten – but laid on top of tombs. 🌿[AF] – But those tombs, they were made of stone? or wood?[JT] – Of stone. They would pile up stones: large, flat stones. Pile them up like this, in length.However tall the person was, like if he was a tall person, then the stone structure would be adjusted to the size of his body.If he was a shorter man, the stone structure would be short in size, adapted to his body.But these stone tombs, they were strictly reserved to those men I've mentioned: elderly, wealthy men; dignitaries of our country, men with ranks… They were the only ones who got to be laid in tombs upon their death. 🌿[AF] – In those days, the men who had been initiated, were their lives special?Were there some things they were not allowed to do? or perhaps, there were some things that only *they* were allowed to do, and not common people?[JT] – In the old days, initiated men would not blend around with commoners. They would always frequent other ranked men.Their food leftovers, for example, could not be eaten by us common people.They would not live close to women. Never. They would spend all their time in the men's house.Suppose they did some cooking out in the bush, their food / I mean, their leftovers, they would throw them away. Get rid of it all, rather than bring it back home.Also, on the occasions they'd be drinking kava: us men who haven't been initiated, even if you happen to be an important leader, if you were never initiated, then you won't be allowed to eat with / I mean, to drink kava in a place where highly ranked men are sitting together.They were a special, a very special category of people! 🌿Even in those times when Christianity had reached us, this [special status of ranked men] kept affecting our lives.Did you hear this? Once Christianity had come here, when it was time to share the Eucharist, the highly-ranked men would refuse to join the communion.That was because they refused to eat from the same plate, from the same cup. They refused to drink from the same cup.This is why the Early Missionaries made an effort to prohibit this practice.They said highly-ranked men should stop hindering the harmony in the community.But before that, the rank system was a tough one. Men with ranks would never talk casually with commoners; they spoke exclusively with other ranked men. 🌿[AF] – Alright, but – that grade system, how did it work, according to you? Was it the case that only initiated men were able to invite their nephews to the initiation, or what?[JT] – Alright. The rank system, in the past, here's how it worked.The rank system was open. It started in a different (family) line, and it was open.And so, some men would initiate you, these would be men who are already initiated themselves, older men ~This had to be your [classificatory] maternal uncle. Suppose he saw / I mean, he identified a young man who was hardworking, who owned many gardens, who owned many pigpens, who owned abundant kava, who owned many houses… well, in that case he could decide to introduce him to initiation.It was not like nowadays, when there's a grade-taking ceremony, and some men go to initiation even though they don't own any land. That's nowadays.I've seen this happen on Lo, on Toga, on Tegua… Some men become initiated just like that, even though they don't own any house, any pig, anything like that. But in the past, it was much more constrained: if you were not a wealthy man, if you didn't own anything, like pigs or things like that, there was no way you would go through initiation.The man who would select you to be initiated, had to be one of your maternal uncles.So your uncle sees you, he observes you, and thinks: “Alright!” That you're a person like this, someone who's dedicated, someone who often acts for other people; he sees that you like to sit with the elders in the men's house, that you chew the kava for them; he sees that you own a house, you own many plots of land, you own kava, you own lots of pigs…And so, your maternal uncle identifies you, and pays a visit to the man who has the supreme rank.He informs the highest-ranked man; and then, once they've performed the relevant rituals of the place, they're ready to bring you to initiation. That's it.Again, initiation was not offered randomly to just anyone; it was only offered to wealthy men. 🌿[AF] – Those initiation rites, did they last one day? one month? Would they require several days?[JT] – Oh no, a grade-taking ceremony, that's considerable work: a whole month! Sometimes, even three or four months.That's because the candidates must first do their period of restriction. They move inland, to the deep bush; they look for vines, for tree barks, things like that.They bring those things back, back to the initiation enclosure. Bring everything, put it there [to build the cabin].They enter a mode of avoidance: they aren't allowed to eat anything from the sea; and they cannot go around with women. If you're married, you're not allowed to sleep with your wife.All those things, you won't be allowed them. You must live piously like that, every single day. 🌿And then, once everything is ready, there's something else that requires some time: the creation of ritual headdresses.They take the time to make their headdresses; and once it's done, they (– They dance? – Not yet!) they mark up the limits of the initiation enclosure. That is where the new initiates get their beating!They get really beaten; some even have their arms broken…This happens when you didn't abide by the ritual restrictions, in case you lapsed – say, if you slept with your wife after all; or, if you ate food from the sea. They would break your arms with clubs!They would reveal to everyone that you failed. Smash your arms with a club, or smash your head in pieces. You would fall. You would die.[AF] – Really?![JT] – Oh yes, sometimes you'd die. You would die, instantly! (That was a long time, a very long time ago.) You would die, and be buried. 🌿But then, if you manage to survive, they'll come for you inside the enclosure. The next morning, they will make you wear a headdress; then they'll beat the newēt drums, and you'll dance along. Dance with your headdress on.[AF] – Do they make you wear the headdress you created yourself?[JT] – No; that'll be a headdress made by other people. You don't know yet how to make a proper headdress. You're newly initiated, you don't know yet the art of creating headdresses.Once you'll have gone through the whole initiation process, you'll be able to make a headdress; but before that, as long as you haven't acquired your rank, you cannot create one.[AF] – Alright but, those headdresses, in the rank system, do they correspond to different ranks? (By the way, how do you say 'rank'?) Are there different ranks?[JT] – Oh yea, they're different. You, you start with the first rank…[AF] – …you mean the headdresses themselves are different?[JT] – The headdresses are different indeed. Now you'd have your first rank; later on, if you go through a grade-taking ceremony a second time, you'll dance with a different headdress.If you run a third time, you'll wear a different headdress again. You'll go ahead like this, until the moment when they'll tell you you've reached the end. Then you'll understand that /[AF] – But the word for ‘grade’ or ‘rank’, how do you say it in Hiw? Do you just call it ‘suqe’?[JT] – They use delimiters (on the ground). They divide up the ground of the initiation house; in doing so, they create a section for the novices [the “plain headdresses”]. There will be one special section for them.Here's how it works. When the initiation enclosure is set up, it has two entrances. On one side is the entrance for those who already have a rank; on the other side is the one for the novices. For those who haven't been initiated yet.The same applies to the kava drinking area.So the kava drinking area will have all novices sitting together here; on the other side will be the others, depending on their ranks. Those who have the first grade, the second grade…And so on and so forth, until the supreme rank.The man with the supreme rank will have the last position, at the end of the sacred house of rites.In case anyone wants to do something, they'll first have to ask him. If he says Yes, then it's allowed; if he says No, then no.[AF] – But the first rank, the second rank, the third rank…, do they have different names? Do they have specific names?[JT] – They do have names, but I don't know them well.[AF] – And what's the name of the highest rank again?[JT] – The name of the highest rank, that will be someone who is ‘supreme’ [‘Suqer̄ot’]. He's ‘supreme’.The supreme rank, that's when you've followed the scale of ranks all the way, till you can't go any further.[AF] – Alright, so you get to the supreme rank; and then, what?[JT] – If you become supreme, then your initiation is over now.You become / You become, so to speak, a holy man. You're a holy person, you cannot go out…[AF] – But what does it mean exactly, to become a holy person? Do people respect you in particular? Do you become chief? or is chiefdom a different thing?[JT] – Yes, chiefs are different. Those who are initiated, I mean, those who have reached the supreme grade, they just live in their chamber, in their section of the men's house. They remain there, in the holiest section of the men's house.The only thing he does is to be there. For example ~ In case of a war, they will send / I mean, he will send his men out. He himself cannot come outside.And then, if we come to him so he can proclaim the end of the war, he will be standing in this room here, and make his declaration — but we won't be allowed to see him.That is, he'll be standing inside his chamber, making a statement towards other highly-ranked men, going down the order of ranks. And so, he would order the end of the war. But he will be invisible to people outside. 🌿People might catch sight of him only when he went to the latrines. But then, when he did so, he wouldn't just walk there: he'd be taken there by pigs!That is, he had a wooden cacolet like this, and would sit on it, while four pigs came from underneath, and transported him all the way to the latrines.Once he'd gone to the latrines, the pigs would carry him back, take him back to his place.Such were the supreme men. They would never walk around, people would never meet them casually.They could only meet them insofar as / like, in time of war, they'd always remain inside, so they couldn't be seen casually.[AF] – What do you mean, wars?[JT] – Whenever a war arose, you would come to hear their advice. They would address other highly-ranked men, going down the order of ranks. That's how they would order the end of a war.But there was no way they'd come out in the open space. Never.[AF] – So there were wars?[JT] – Oh yes, there were wars on Hiw.[AF] – Who did the Hiw people fight against?[JT] – Against other Hiw people.Those of Vëqeyö fought against Vësëv. Sometimes, it was R̄ētawegone fighting against the people of Vonqō.[AF] – And they fought for what? for land ownership? Or was it about women? or what?[JT] – They waged wars about women, waged wars about land. Sometimes they just fought for nothing. It could even become a real ‘pitched battle’. 🌿[AF] – And what did they fight with? Bows and arrows?[JT] – They fought with bows and arrows, fought with javelins, with maces; sometimes with sorcery.[AF] – Sorcery?[JT] – Yes, sorcery. Here's how it goes. Imagine you're knocking someone out with a mace, or hitting them with a javelin, and they fall on the ground;that's when you use sorcery to finish them off, in one blow.[AF] – You mean, by bewitching them? (by the way, how do you say “bewitch”?)[JT] – That's called 'tër̄yë', or 'r̄akvi'. You 'r̄akvi' someone.[AF] – But how does it work? What do you use? magic leaves?[JT] – No, no. People would go to a stone tomb, collect the bones, and char them on the fire.So they'd collect the bones in a tomb, char them — and make sure their victim eats the thing.That is, you'd put [the magic arrow] in contact with your enemy's food; or alternatively, have it touch the waste he leaves in the bush, in the latrines.[Due to sorcery,] people in those times always avoided to go [to the latrines] apart from the others.Do you hear me? The latrines, those used by women, they're called ‘yön̄wr̄at’; those used by men, they are called ‘sacred yön̄wr̄at’.Women, men, they would all do the same. The number of seats in the latrines, if there were ten of them, then that was all. If there were ten wiping sticks, then that was all.Whenever someone went in, they would drop their waste, in the same location as where others had dropped theirs before. Also, they would wipe themselves with the same shrub.Someone had just used it to wipe themself, and then someone else comes in and uses it too.The reason for this was clear: if you wiped yourself with your own stick, then you could be killed by sorcery. Someone could harm you, have you die.Someone could just come, remove some of the waste that you'll have left on the shrub, and they could easily carry out sorcery on you, kill you. 🌿Finally, kava drinking worked the same.Imagine we are sitting together, chewing our kava; in that case, we must spit out the kava refuse in the same place. Likewise, when throwing out the kava deposit from our cups, we must throw it away in the same place.If you threw yours away in a separate location, then — suppose I hate you, that I'm furious against you, imagine I want to kill you with sorcery: I'll just have to take away some of your kava refuse, or a bit of the kava drink you may have spilled on the ground; I'll just have to take that, cast a spell on it, you'll die.So yeah, in the olden days, this was how people would be killed with sorcery.[AF] – Did people practice such sorcery even within the same village? or was it always someone from one village killing somebody from another village?[JT] – Oh no! This could happen also inside the same village. Within the same village, imagine I have planted lots of yam, and that I become wealthy in food.Now imagine that y'all have no food, and that I'm the only one with tons and tons of food. Maybe y'all want to kill me, use sorcery or some kind of magic, to make me die.Or imagine I have lots of pigs. People will [covet] my pigs, and maybe they'd want to use some form of black magic against me.?[People could kill someone from their own village; and they could also kill those from another place.]This is why, in every single village of Hiw, there is always one set of latrines. If there are ten wiping sticks, then that will be only ten, and not one more.One man goes in, drops his thing, wipes himself; then someone else comes, and must wipe himself on top of that. And the next person will do the same. :DIn doing so, whoever wants to use sorcery against someone, will find it quite difficult to kill anyone. 🌿For example, even if I hate you, I won't be able to kill you, because you've wiped your buttocks in the same place as other people. If I tried to kill you, I would also kill my father, my mother, my child! :D :D[AF] – You might kill me too! :D :D[JT] – Ha ha, yes I could walk up to those bush toilets you're using, and do black magic against you![AF] – Oh no, please! :D :D :D[JT] – So yes, such was life in the past. In the old days, kava drinking was not something done casually.Kava waste had to be thrown away all in the same place. And the same would apply when going to the latrines.[AF] – And that life you're describing, is it over nowadays?[JT] – Yes, it's over.[AF] – Has it been over for a long time?[JT] – Yes, yes, it's over. Even those things on Hiw that were good, like the grade-taking system.Did you hear? The grade-taking system, when Christianity and the New Testament came to Hiw, people got rid of it all.They abandoned the grade system, abandoned sorcery killings – all those things, they abandoned them.[AF] – But why did they abandon them? Was it the missionaries who told them to?[JT] – Whenever [the Missionaries] told them that such and such practice was bad, the people of Hiw abandoned it right away.Now these days, the grade-taking system is sort of coming back.Today, there are only three people left [in the Torres Islands] who have gone through initiation; these are people on Toga island. But on Hiw, the grade-taking system disappeared a long time ago.My grandfather was the last one.[AF] – Really? What was his name?Mathew Tëpnetur̄e. He was the last man to have gone through initiation.{ (NB: the transcription from now on would need to be double-checked) [AF] – Do you have an idea what time period he went through initiation?[JT] – Hm, must have been around –[AF] – Before the Second World War?[JT] – Oh no, much earlier!! Must have been in the 19th century. Eighteen something. The 1900s came much later, yeah, must have been in the 1800s.[AF] – Wow, that's a long time ago.[JT] – Oh yes, a long time ago. 🌿[AF] – Do you think you people will bring back the Suqe?[JT] – Well, it's really up to this man over there. Michael. That man who lives down there.If he decides to restore the Suqe, they'll restore it; otherwise– **[AF] – Alright. Interesting.[JT] – One day he might decide to put together a list of names, names of young men who he deems fit to go to initiation –And if he gives them the instructions to prepare for Suqe, those men would do it. But if he doesn't, well –[But the problem is, he's not the right person. He is **. He's my brother.][AF] – He is what?[JT] – [He is **. He doesn't *forget* about these these subjects like these.]So he might well keep an eye out for all the young men who are **, all those who own kava, all those who are careful with things –But then if this doesn't happen, then it won't happen.[AF] – Are there still people on Hiw who / who use sorcery?[JT] – No. There's no longer anyone who has gone through initiation; nor is there anyone who can practice sorcery.[People like this mostly exist on other islands, like Ambrym.][People from Ambrym] come to the cities like Santo or Vila, and show us [their witch skills]. But on Hiw, there is no more. These practices have disappeared.[AF] – But in your view, the disappearance of those practices, is it a good thing?Is it a good thing, I mean, are you glad they've disappeared? or you're unhappy about it?[JT] – A long time ago, sorcery murders didn't exist, people would not kill each other this way.But nowadays, that habit / that practice has spread, and it's a bad thing.If I hate you even just a little, I can just kill you. But in the past, there was no such thing.[AF] – Yes, black magic.[JT] – Yeah. So here's my answer: in our present time, that is one thing which I really dislike.[AF] – You're happy that the Gospel came.[JT] – Yes, the Gospel is a great thing.[AF] – You are actually knowledgeable both about the Gospels, and about the ancient traditions.[JT] – Who?[AF] – You.[JT] – (I can't really say this, sorry.) I / I shouldn't say this, because that's something of the devil...But I'm also knowledgeable in sorcery.It was my father. My father and my uncle. My maternal uncle, I mean, the father of ***.[woman] – Tayōy. Andrew Tayōy. Andrew.[JT] – The father of my brother-in-law (whose name I'm not allowed to say out loud).[woman] – He means the father of Stanley, of Father Stanley. The father of Father Stanley.[JT] – He is the one who taught me everything about sorcery.So let me tell you: [people can get envious of someone, and kill them using sorcery.]I'm telling you exactly like I was told[AF] – And so, you know about sorcery?[JT] – I do know about it, yes. But, you know, it's just that I'm knowledgeable about it.I mean, the elders would always say: “It's sad if these practices fall into oblivion! So it's good that you learn about them, as long as you don't try it out yourself.”[AF] – And did you try it out?[JT] – Ha ha — If you want me to try, I can try! :D :D[AF] – Or you show me how to do sorcery, and I will try :D :D[JT] – Oh no!! :D :D[AF] – Alright. Thank you.}